Minion: The Creep Minion

Suggest improvements to existing titans, minion, or create a new one!

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Do you like this? Do you want this?

I like it, but its not for ID1.
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No votes
I like it, it should be implemented.
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I do not like it, but its necessary.
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I do not like it, and I hate to see this come.
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100%
Needs some rethought, but otherwise good (Please State)
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Total votes: 2

Dragoneles
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Re: Minion: The Creep Minion

Post by Dragoneles »

HunkofSteel wrote:What is the idea of Titan have minions: The idea of presence. The idea that Titan gets an extra unit in the map. The idea that these unit will help Titan win through slight snowballing.

So that the builder can keep playing.
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HunkofSteel
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Re: Minion: The Creep Minion

Post by HunkofSteel »

Dragoneles wrote:
HunkofSteel wrote:What is the idea of Titan have minions: The idea of presence. The idea that Titan gets an extra unit in the map. The idea that these unit will help Titan win through slight snowballing.

So that the builder can keep playing.

The punisher says hi.(pun intended)

At the very least, we should make minions more micro based, requiring constant attention. That way, it would act as a deterrent to punishing. The players NEED other players to use the minis, or they can use it themselves and find it terribly difficult to use.
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Antinoobian
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Re: Minion: The Creep Minion

Post by Antinoobian »

HunkofSteel wrote:The idea that these unit will help Titan win through slight snowballing.


Actually, there's a pretty big snowball in the form of "Oh look we have one less Builder on our side" even without Minions at all.

Anyway, if I understand both sides of the argument:

HunkofSteel thinks that sufficiently weak Minions will make for a relatively small snowball effect that can be more easily be overcome then the current snowball.

Tehr, however, argues that any Minion that can Scan and damage stuff will inevitably cause a fairly large snowball, simply due to the fact that they can find stuff for the Titan to kill and force wood bases to detonate.

I tend to agree more with Tehr's assessment. The map awareness Minions grant should never be underestimated, even if you disregard any help they give you through brute force. Between direst sight and Scans, Minions give you a huge amount of information about where the Builders have put tasty stuff and/or important stuff, allowing you to kill it.
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HunkofSteel
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Re: Minion: The Creep Minion

Post by HunkofSteel »

Antinoobian wrote:Tehr, however, argues that any Minion that can Scan and damage stuff will inevitably cause a fairly large snowball, simply due to the fact that they can find stuff for the Titan to kill and force wood bases to detonate.


This is mostly true. My counter argument for this is that minions DO play a large role in causing det basing etc. The main difference weaker minis would do is that in the event of a large snowball, even if you did have 4 minis you would have trouble stopping the contruction of a base without the Titan. Furthermore, the ability to stop wood bases is furthermore reduced because the Titan is the only one with the real power to feed on wood bases; these minions would take 4 seconds to go through the walls.

While this may seem to be a buff towards builders, let us not forget the minis abilities. They are all made to be incredibly powerful when synced with the Titans. Meaning that the Titan side would NOT be at a disadvantage compared to now.

The main snowball this suggestion stops is the 'minion gets more minions' type of snowball. With this, ONLY your Titan is capable of killing builders. Suddenly, builders do not have to be shut down on gold when there is a mini. HOWEVER, they must STILL keep their wits about because a Hunting Minion and a Titan can EASILY take them down.
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Tehr
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Re: Minion: The Creep Minion

Post by Tehr »

HunkofSteel wrote:
Antinoobian wrote:Tehr, however, argues that any Minion that can Scan and damage stuff will inevitably cause a fairly large snowball, simply due to the fact that they can find stuff for the Titan to kill and force wood bases to detonate.


This is mostly true. My counter argument for this is that minions DO play a large role in causing det basing etc. The main difference weaker minis would do is that in the event of a large snowball, even if you did have 4 minis you would have trouble stopping the contruction of a base without the Titan. Furthermore, the ability to stop wood bases is furthermore reduced because the Titan is the only one with the real power to feed on wood bases; these minions would take 4 seconds to go through the walls.

While this may seem to be a buff towards builders, let us not forget the minis abilities. They are all made to be incredibly powerful when synced with the Titans. Meaning that the Titan side would NOT be at a disadvantage compared to now.

The main snowball this suggestion stops is the 'minion gets more minions' type of snowball. With this, ONLY your Titan is capable of killing builders. Suddenly, builders do not have to be shut down on gold when there is a mini. HOWEVER, they must STILL keep their wits about because a Hunting Minion and a Titan can EASILY take them down.


Your suggestion does prevent Minions from killing Builders to a certain extent. However, that is not the really the OP part of Minions. In fact, the only Minions I see actually getting kills are camping Infestors, Archons, and SOMETIMES Thors with their 170 damage nuke. If we want to get rid of Minions getting more Minions, just remove Infestor/Archon Minions, or change the Infestor Minion's nuke, and remove Archon's Cloak.

What you're forgetting about Minions is that - while they rarely get feed from a wood base due to warning walls - they do force the Builder to set up an entirely new wood base, draining from them valuable Wooding/Golding time. That, in addition to having Scan, and generally disrupting peaceful Builder gameplay with their very presence, is what makes Minions actually OP. While I hate to say it, Minions getting new Minions is a non-issue compared to this.
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HunkofSteel
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Re: Minion: The Creep Minion

Post by HunkofSteel »

Tehr wrote:. That, in addition to having Scan, and generally disrupting peaceful Builder gameplay with their very presence, is what makes Minions actually OP. While I hate to say it, Minions getting new Minions is a non-issue compared to this.


Disrupting peaceful builder game is not OP. That is supposed to happen. What is OP is that minions right now can do what a Titan does. Do we not see camping festors? Do we not see minions getting a kill? Do we not see Titan getting a kill BECAUSE of a minion there just a-moving?

Minions CAN disrupt a base in contruction. Minions CAN destroy bases by themselves (like wtf).

Minions getting new minions is not an issue? Its only not an issue in a game where there are at least 5 good players to hold the line. Noob Titan vs noob builders, who wins? Titan. Why? Because minions get more minions.

I've seen it way too often in SEA. In fact, 9 out of 10 games in which I am the only good player, Titan wins because of this. But wait, we should NOT be nerfing Titan. So I suggested a change, one that would nullify minions getting minion type of snowball, yet does not nerf Titan's team in any sizable way.

We claim we want to make the game easier for noobs and newbies to understand and play. Hell, we even set up a "If this is first game, watch", which I found good, though not helpful. What happens when the entire freakin' server is noobs and newbies? Who do they watch? All they see is a Titan overpowered game. Why? Because minions.

What I'm trying to do here is give builders a chance to overcome that, yet not nerf Titan overall. You can fuck around with the minion, but it would not bring you close to its full potential if you are a noob. Whereas now, we have noobs A-moving and BOOM I killed a builder.

I'll give an example of what I mean right now. In this spoiler if you want to read.

Spoiler: show
Imagine we have a silver league Protoss player, and a high Master protoss player. Both uses colossus, but you can't really tell who is the Master and who is the Silver league player because colossus micro is simple and can be used by anyone. But look at SCBW, you can IMMEDIATLY tell the difference between a pro reaver player and an average one.


This will not affect the overall balance (hopefully) when its a good player against another good player, but this makes a huge difference in low level games.

Snowballing makes or breaks low level games. In NA, I see wall spams everywhere, and builders holding map control. These are all what good players SHOULD be doing. I look at SEA, and none of this is going on. THEN the minion gets more minion snowball begins. And it goes FAST and HARD.

I'll repeat this. This is not a nerf, it is a change. High level games like those in NA I've experienced would NOT have much difference, because mini would still disrupt stuff like you say Tehr. But it DOES make a ton of difference in low level games. I am not balancing for low level games here, I am making low level games harder.
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